@garylfrancione I wouldn't say Singer is doing that at all, Gary. Singer is a realist about the situation. Utopianism is only so good in the real world. I respect your abolitionist approach a lot and agree it ought to be the benchmark. However, how will that play out in the real world? Has it worked? Who is making more ground - welfarists like Singer or abolitionists like yourself? Maybe Singer's position isn't the rightest but it's surely more pragmatic.